Talk:Algeria

RfC on ethnic groups in the infobox

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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What should be stated in the infobox's Ethnic groups field?

• Option 1: 75–85% Arabs, 15–24% Berbers, 1% others (sources)
• Option 2: 99% Arab-Berber, 1% other (sources here and here)
• Option 3: 70–90% Berbers (sources)
• Option 4: Nothing

See the talk page and DRN discussions.

Provide your answers as Option 1, 2, 3, or 4 with brief explanatory statements in the Survey. Do not reply to the statements of other editors in the Survey. Back-and-forth discussion should go in the Discussion section; that's what it's for. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 13:56, 26 August 2024 (UTC) [fixed 14:54, 26 August 2024 (UTC)]

P.S. I didn't think I needed to explicitly state this, but please only !vote once. Thanks. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 10:48, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Survey

• Option 1: I believe the infobox should remain as it is, as it accurately reflects what Algerians identify as ethnically and is well-supported by reliable sources (both in Algeria#Ethnic groups and the footnote in the infobox). The vast majority of sources make it clear that 75 to 85% of the population identifies as ethnically Arab while 15 to 24% identify as ethnically Berber. Option 3, however, appears to rely on a few WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE sources that focus on deep ancestral origins tracing back millennia and genetics, rather than ethnicity (ethnicity revolves around self-identity, language, and culture—not genetics and ancestry, per the definition in ethnicity and the following sources:[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12]). Additionally, option 3 completely overlooks the existence of Arabs and other ethnic groups in Algeria, focusing solely on the presence of Berbers. Option 2 would be pretty problematic as it would create confusion due to the lack of sources explaining what an "Arab-Berber" precisely means, and the few sources that use this WP:UNDUE term only mention it in passing. It remains unclear whether this 99% Arab-Berber figure combines Arab and Berber populations or represents people of mixed Arab and Berber origins. The Arab-Berber article was ultimately redirected for this very reason. I don't think we should remove the ethnic group parameter, as suggested in option 4. While it's true that FAs and GAs often set good examples, omitting ethnic groups is not a mandatory practice for these articles, many of which do include ethnic data in the infobox. There is no dispute or divergence among reliable sources regarding ethnic identity in Algeria; they consistently indicate a 75–85% Arab and 15–25% Berber range. Skitash (talk) 14:38, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
• I'd say a mix of 1 and 2, so: 99% Arab-Berber (75–85% Arabs, 15–24% Berbers), 1% other. The answer isn't clear cut.--Ortizesp (talk) 17:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
• Option 4 as we do with or best country articles that have gone through FA and GA reviews.... Australia, Germany, Canada, Japan. Let the body explain in detail MOS:USEPROSE. Clearly a topic that needs more explanation than just a list in the lead as seen by all the debates above.Moxy🍁 21:50, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

• Option 4. Leave disputed/detailed stats to the body where they can be properly discussed. If the answer isn't clear-cut, it shouldn't be presented as if it is. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:51, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

• Option 4 > Option 2 > Option 3 : I present my choices in order of preference. I deplore misappropriation of sources (from Skitach) is endorsed in the proposal which misleads the reader because they are used to make say what they do not say: Example: the CIA Factbook which states Arab-Amazigh 99%, European less than 1 is thus used to say 85% of Arabs (which it does not say at all is pure speculation). Same for study.com: Officially, 99% of Algerians identify as ethnically Arab-berber. The sources that present 85% Arabs are out of step with quality sources, it is a patchwork of popularization sources (atlas for young people), of works not focused on the ethnic study of Algeria (e.g. a book on feminism), and of cherry-picking. Almost all academic sources say that the Algerian population is descended mainly from Berbers (this is the precise point on which Skitach wants to mislead public opinion): Oxford Business Group, The Report, p.10, Around 99% of the population is Arab-Berber ethnicity, which means that nearly all of the citizenry is descended from Berber or Amazigh populations – the indigenous pre-Islamic peoples of North Africa. Encyclopedia of the World's Minorities, 2013 : Minority Population: Berbers 7 million, Sahrawi 120,000 Ethnic groups: Arab-Berber (99%) Europeans (less than 1%) René Gallissot, 1986, Maghreb-Algérie, classes et nation : Libération nationale et Guerre d'Algéri : The Arab-Berbers form the Algerian people [...]Matthias Brenzinger, Language diversity Endagered, p.128, More than 70% of North Africans of Amazigh originis speak no Amazigh languages, but Arabic languages ​​only. In Morocco and Algerian, about 80% of the citizen are considered to be of Amazigh origin, as are 60% in Tunisia and Libya.. Moha Ennaji, Multiculturalism and Democracy in North Africa: Aftermath of the Arab Spring, Taylor & Francis: The terms “Arabs” and “Berbers” are misleading and not to be understood in an ethnic sense. [...] Thus, the so called “Arabs” in Morocco and Algeria consist mainly of Arabized Berbers. the total population of Morocco and Algeria, respectively (Chaker 1998:16; Benrabah, this volume) Language Policy and Planning in Algeria: Case Study of Berber Language Planning, ISSN 1799-2591 Theory and Practice in Language Studies, Vol. 13, No. 1, pp. 59-68, January 2023.yet scholars claim that approximately 80 to 90 per cent of the current population of North Africa remains ethnically Berbers, albeit a large portion of this proportion has been Arabized and has therefore lost their original Berber identity markers (Ilahiane, 2006, p. xxxvi).. By wanting to impose a single version of 85% Arabs (or 75%) Skitach hides the complexity of the concepts, and what is hidden behind the Arabic terms, and especially refuses the majority of sources that say something else (Arab-Berber, ethnically majority Berber etc...). This is a case of civil pov-pushing (WP:CPP), and WP:UNDUE. It is better to let the concepts and the different hypotheses be cited in the section (WP:NPOV) and leave the infobox as is if it is to do a pov-pushing in this infobox. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 12:57, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

  Thus, the so called “Arabs” in Morocco and Algeria consist mainly of Arabized Berbers that's as meaningless as saying that "as Homo Sapiens, all of them share almost 99% of their DNA with chimps." The fact of the matter is that a) almost all Arabs are "Arabized something or another" and b) they don't care as it doesn't prevent them from being ethnically Arabs and identifying as such. This is certainly the case for the majority of Algerians. M.Bitton (talk) 00:05, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

• Option 1: Identity is not about ethnicity, claiming that maghrebi people "lost their berber identity" because some take genetics as the main identity caracteristic is misleading. Bebrer ethnic background is alone a debatable subject. let alone other more important subjects such languages, and others like music, political history, cultural heritage. Same goes for other arab states, we'll just call them assyrians or phoenicians or copts that lost their identity...I join @Skitash in this. Nourerrahmane (talk) 15:02, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1 is the most accurate and balanced reflection of Algeria's ethnic composition, as it acknowledges the current self-identification of the vast majority of Algerians while also being supported by reliable sources. Ethnicity, by definition, is based on how people identify themselves in terms of culture, language, and heritage. In Algeria, most people—between 75-85%—identify as Arab, and this reality is confirmed by numerous demographic studies and academic sources.HanKim20 (talk) 15:35, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
• Option 4 > Option 2 > Option 3 by sources. Per Monsieur Patillo. --Panam2014 (talk) 18:10, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Indeffed sockpuppeteer

I vote for option 4 and choose the following in order of preference : Option 4 > Option 3. Contributors @Moxy @Nikkimaria suggested Option 4 which is serves all parties involved and ends disputes about Algeria country card for good. Option 3 is extremely relevant because of its empirical validity. other successful articles such as country cards like Germany, France, Canada articles refrain from discussing such vague concepts and there isn't such issues there, for some reason this is imposed on the Algeria page necessarily, it should be treated like any other country article, Mr Patillo sources from the university of Algiers and top institutions from the country support the arguments as well as other well-known publications to substantiate the fact, the sources provided by Skitash are very misleading and unreliable. Potymkin (talk) 18:37, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Duplicate votes by 129.45.0.0/16
Option 4 129.45.40.211 (talk) 18:13, 27 August 2024 (UTC) Option 4 certainly. Other options are not suitable. 129.45.98.137 (talk) 13:54, 28 August 2024 (UTC) Option 4 129.45.96.219 (talk) 21:34, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

• Option 4 It seems there are many ways to divide them. Senorangel (talk) 02:58, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
• Of course Option 1 because it talks about the nature of Algeria now and what the people know themselves and from sources, as (Skitash) explained what the ethnic groups are and mentioned many sources

The option 2 is inaccurate and does not help at all

The option 3 is clearly incorrect and the alleged sources are not sources at all and are not based on studies but rather are merely heresies and nationalist tendencies from Berber writers, so it is not right to take them as sources at all.

The option 4 does not solve the problem but rather evades it and reduces the value of the article and its information, and given Algeria's history, ethnic groups should not be removed from the information box.

I want to say something to the officials at Wikipedia. Not every time someone comes and wants to change an article to suit his mood, you go along with him, especially on a topic that is known globally and clear as the sun, and is also known locally, such as the Arabs of Algeria.

Thanks 37.220.114.228 (talk) 08:50, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

• Option 4. There is no requirement nor benefit to representing what seems to be a complicated ethnic breakdown in an infobox. It seems more apt to include a discussion about the Arabization of the population in the body of the article, with sourced statements about their self-identification as Arabs. Per what I've witnessed browsing WP:RSN, if there are quality academic sources which disagree with the CIA World Factbook, then that should be represented in the body of the article. --Brocade River Poems 22:34, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

• Option 4 since this is content in need of explanation the best course of action is to let the body explain the situation between this.

𝚈𝚘𝚟𝚝 (𝚝𝚊𝚕𝚔𝚟𝚝) 14:05, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

• Option 1; as per Skitash, Nourerrahmane. Snowstormfigorion (talk) 09:03, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

• Option 4. I think that there is no requirement nor benefit to add ethnic theme to the infobox. It's a complicated argument which is better to explain it in a proper way in a specific section where more informations about the Arabization of the population could be added, with sourced statements about their self-identification as Arabs. Since ethnicity is a complicated construct to define and since various studies reach different results with variances between values ​​that cannot be approximated, I would opt to include nothing. --Lord Ruffy98 (talk) 00:34, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Threaded discussion including replies to other editors' comments and other non-survey comments may be added here.

Note to all participants: please avoid editing the comments of other editors, except in rare circumstances such as those allowed by WP:TPO – and even then, such changes, such as moving a comment into proper chronological order, or adjusting threaded indent are best handled by an uninvolved editor. By the same token, please do not edit your own comment if there are replies to it already, or if some other comment refers to an earlier version of your own post, per WP:TPO. For guidance on how to handle a needed change to your own comment, please see WP:REDACT. Mathglot (talk) 00:58, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

I've asked the editor for more clarification..... we don't want people mocking about with other people's comments.... nor do we want people's comments misinterpreted. Moxy🍁 01:14, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

• The sources presented are mostly incidental mentions. Are there any high-quality sources that directly discuss the topic of Ethnic groups in Algeria? CMD (talk) 11:47, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

  The problem the debate seems to be having is "no official" sources out there that are new in any way.... .just best guess by different organizations. UK based Minority Rights Group explains all is kinda up in the air. Moxy🍁 17:02, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

  To the subject of sources, I can locate a few.

  • Aïtel, Fazia. We Are Imazighen: The Development of Algerian Berber Identity in Twentieth-Century Literature and Culture. United States, University Press of Florida, 2014. Contains a statement which reads As far as the term Arab is concerned, as Feraoun makes clear in the earlier quote, it was often used broadly to refer to the populations of North Africa, whether they were Arabs or not. 16 Moreover, at various points in history, Berber individuals themselves and even whole tribes sought to present themselves as Arab and trace their genealogies back to Islamic civi- lization in the same way that later on some Berbers claimed Turkish ances- try. Today, a Berber, depending on the circumstances, would either use this umbrella term or would feel the need to specify that he/she is not really Arab, as Feraoun did in his letter to Camus

  The above book looks at the issue of identity in Algerian cultural consciousness mostly.

  • Minorities and the State in the Arab World. United Kingdom, Lynne Rienner Publishers, 1999.

  This book contains a chapter titled "The Berber Question in Algeria" and notes on page 33 that "25 to 30 percent" of the people in Algeria speak Berber as a language.

  Beyond that,

  • The New York Times Guide to Essential Knowledge: A Desk Reference for the Curious Mind. United States, St. Martin's Press, 2004.

  The New York Times lists Algeria as being 99% Arab-Berber

  • Arab Countries Economic and Social Development Handbook Volume 1 Arab Funds for Economic Development. United States, International Business Publications, USA, 2013.

  This book also says 99% Arab-Berber

  • Lyons, Amelia H.. The Civilizing Mission in the Metropole: Algerian Families and the French Welfare State During Decolonization. United States, Stanford University Press, 2013.

  Page 31-34 describes the Berbers as a minority population in Algeria in contrast to the Arab majority.

  • Mergent International Manual. United States, Mergent, 2003.

  This from the University of Michigan also lists 99% Arab-Berber.

  This is by no means a comrephensive survey, but yeah. Brocade River Poems 23:05, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

  25 to 30 percent" of the people in Algeria speak Berber as a language. that's impossible given that a) the number of speakers was around 18% in the 1966 census and b) it has been decreasing ever since. If you look at the estimates of the speakers of the various Berber languages, you'll find that their total is closer to 15%. M.Bitton (talk) 23:17, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

  If you want to argue with the source, you're more than free to find the author and make a complaint, if you'd like. I don't see how it is relevant to me, though, or to Wikipedia in general. If you have a source feel free to cite it, but do remember that per WP:V: If reliable sources disagree with each other, then maintain a neutral point of view and present what the various sources say, giving each side its due weight.. Brocade River Poems 00:01, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

  Give me a break. M.Bitton (talk) 00:03, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

  I can give you more sources, if you want.

  • [13]. Berber speakers are to be found mainly in Morocco (40-45% of the population) and Algeria (25-30%), in Niger, Mali and Burkina-Faso (Tuareg), in Libya, Tunisia and at the extremities of the Berber domain, in Mauritania and Egyp
  • [14] This source cited in Languages of Algeria reads about 73% of the country's population speaks Algerian Arabic while 27% speak Berber
  • [15] Reads . It is noteworthy that up to present, no official and accurate census data regarding the Berbers’ demography are available, yet scholars claim that approximately 80 to 90 per cent of the current population of North Africa remains ethnically Berbers, albeit a large portion of this proportion has been Arabized and has therefore lost their original Berber identity markers (Ilahiane, 2006, p. xxxvi). Following the same line of thought, Chaker (2004) asserts that “the huge majority of current Arabic speakers in the Maghreb are in fact Berbers who were “Arabized” at various times in history”. Chaker (2001) adds that “Algeria and Morocco are by far the countries that count the most significant Berber-speaking population, approximately 25% in Algeria, 35 to 40% in Morocco” (p.136).
  • [16] Tamazight (the Berber word for language) covers a vast geographical area: all of North Africa, the Sahara, and a part of the West African Sahel. But the countries principally concerned are, by order of demographical importance: Morocco (35 to 40% of the total population), Algeria (25% of the population), Niger and Mali (Tuaregs).
  • [17]There are three main language groups in present-day Algeria: Arabophones, Berberophones, and Francophones. The Arabic-speaking community constitutes approximately 70–75% of the total population. Berberophones represent 25–30% and live in communities scattered all over the country

  Brocade River Poems 02:17, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

  Please note that this RfC concerns ethnic groups rather than languages or ancestry. As for "80 to 90 per cent of the current population of North Africa remains ethnically Berbers", that is a classic Berberist claim that diverges from mainstream sources and lacks solid evidence. Ethnicity is primarily about self-identification. Skitash (talk) 17:35, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah, I'm not engaging in an argument about whether or not they are definitively x, y, or z. Someone asked if there were sources on the matter, and I provided them. I do not care what is a "Berberist claim" or what is, I suppose, an "Arabist" claim, and neither should any editor on Wikipedia. Even if a source is biased, the source being biased is not grounds for exclusion. Likewise, that diverges from mainstream sources and lacks solid evidence is up for the sources to decide. Language is very much related to ethnicity (with an additional reminder here that Wikipedia is not a sufficient source for Wikipedia), but the article you linked even says By way of language shift, intermarriage, acculturation, adoption, and religious conversion, individuals or groups may over time shift from one ethnic group to another. Per the Oxford English Dictionary, however, the word ethnicity means Status in respect of membership of a group regarded as ultimately of common descent, or having a common national or cultural tradition; ethnic character. Emphasis added. Definition per the APA Ethnicity is a characterization of people based on having a shared culture (e.g., language, food, music, dress, values, and beliefs) related to common ancestry and shared history. For comparisons sake, if an indigenous American of the Apache tribe only speaks English and self-identifies as White American after having been conquered and having their language and culture suppressed, they do not cease being an Apache because the world at large still views them as Apache, Native American, indigenous. If I moved to China, adopted Chinese customs, and declared myself Chinese, I do not suddenly cease to be Italian.

  Per this source, Fought, Carmen. Language and Ethnicity. p.1-10., Cambridge University Press, 2006. in modern societies that value self-determination and respect the right of each individual to define himself or herself, it is easy to fall back on the utopian idea that a person's race or ethnicity is whatever he or she says it is. But while this can be true on one level, on another level one cannot be completely free of the views and attitudes of others in the society.

  Likewise, the sources cited in Ethnicity do note that common ancestry is potentially part of the deal. So, while it is completely true that Algerian's might overwhelmingly identify themselves as Arab, it is also equally true that self-identification isn't the sole criteria for ethnicity and ethnic affiliation and that the view of the outside world is still also relevant.

  For the record, though, declaring sources as "Berberist" comes across a bit like WP:NATIONALIST, per the essay, making claims that Ethnic group is or is not the "true" group / Ethnic group does or does not stem from another ethnic group are, generally, a cause for concern.

  And for the record, my vote was to omit the ethnic information from the infobox because it is a more complicated issue and it does not need to be in the infobox.

  Cheers. Brocade River Poems 21:45, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

• Wondering if we have some sort of outside canvassing going on..... Simply odd to see so many one-edited IPS and accounts here out of the blue.Moxy🍁 00:14, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

References (rfc)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Blocking the article (infobox and ethnic group section)

I propose to @Skitash (talk · contribs) to explains its successive reverts. Apparently it is not possible to complete the article which is at the limit of WP:OWN Kind regards, Monsieur Patillo (talk) 00:05, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

The onus is on you to explain why you believe your edits constitute improvements to this article. They don't seem like improvements to me at all. You simply cherry-picked passing mentions from WP:UNDUE sources that support your POV, even going as far as to include genetic ancestry data pertaining to Morocco, Tunisia and Libya, which clearly doesn't belong in this article. Furthermore, this source you cited does not in any way support your claim that Arab-Berber "means that almost all the inhabitants are descended from Berber populations". You've misinterpreted the source and introduced factually incorrect WP:OR. It's interesting to note that your own source distinguishes between origins and ethnic identity, yet you continue to conflate the two as if they were the same. Skitash (talk) 00:33, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

@SkitashThe changes I proposed are important for maintaining accuracy and neutrality in the presentation of information.

I can understand that you have a divergent opinion but I note some inconsistencies in your approach (which I will explain below).

1) As the moderator reminded you in the DRN genetic elements can be included in the section. This is the case in featured articles. ex : Madagascar#Ethnic_groups, Bulgaria#Demographics, Canada#Ethnicity

You then claimed that what bothered you was the insertion in the infobox, but now you are even blocking the section and the text from any addition.

2) You are addressing a new argument which is that of the refusal of ancestry as an ethnic element. This is still a curiosity because sources do not say this:

• Ethnic group, England and Wales: Census 2021 : [18] Ethnicity is multi-dimensional and subjective, with various ways in which a person may choose to define their ethnic group. This may include common ancestry, elements of culture, identity, religion, language and physical appearance. It is generally accepted that ethnic group does include all these aspects, and others, in combination.
• Peuples, fictions ? Ethnicité, identité ethnique et sociétés anciennes, Pascal Ruby : Pour l’essentiel, c’est aussi une définition mixte du groupe ethnique que J. M. Hall retient pour aborder la question de l’ethnicité dans les sociétés helléniques de l’Antiquité. Après avoir envisagé de façon critique les autres critères, Hall, qui adopte une perspective constructiviste de l’ethnicité, définit l’ethnie comme « un groupe social » uni par « la croyance putative en une ascendance commune en association avec une terre natale primordiale » La parenté commune, réelle ou fictive, constitue souvent, de fait, le plus petit commun dénominateur du groupe ethnique retenu par les auteurs. Cette définition, J. M. Hall la voudrait « monothétique » : serait-elle pour autant totalement satisfaisante ?

Moreover, when it comes to adding elements of Arab ancestry such as migrations, you do it without reservation (and without source): for example, in the article there is the sentence: Centuries of Arab migrations to the Maghreb since the seventh century shifted the demographic scope in Algeria. Estimates vary based on different sources. (which is contrary to WP:NPOV and is UNDUE).

3)a)You've misinterpreted the source and introduced factually incorrect WP:OR. Oxford Business Group, The Repport, p.10, Arround 99% of population is Arab-Berber ethnicity, which means that nearly all of the citizenry is descended from Berber or Amazigh populations – the indigenous pre-Islamic peoples of North Africa.. Nothing has been diverted, your accusations are unfounded.

b)It's interesting to note that your own source distinguishes between origins and ethnic identity, yet you continue to conflate the two as if they were the same. Please do not make any assumptions and tell us which passage you are referring to?

4) What is your proposal based on the sources mentioned in the previous discussions? Are you sticking to the fact that 85% of Algerians are Arabs from the Arabian Peninsula and Arab migrations?

@Nourerrahmane read WP:NOPA. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 15:55, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

1) Out of the articles you presented, Madagascar is the only one that features genetic data in the ethnicity section (which shouldn't be there in the first place), and even then, WP:OTHERCONTENT applies.

2) This is not a new argument but rather common sense. Ethnicity is a social construct based on identity, culture, and language per the vast majority of RS, and that is a fact you can't change.[19][20][21][22][23][24][25][26][27][28][29][30] Your first source uses the word may and does not claim that ancestry is a fundamental requirement or defining feature of ethnicity (unlike identity and language). :::This is the case in Algeria, where people identify based on what language they speak and what culture they practice. Your second source clarifies that ethnicity can be grounded in real or fictitious kinship, meaning it is not inherently linked to genetics, but with self-identity or claimed lineage, which again links back to the definition of ethnicity as a social construct based on identity.

3) You knowingly cited a different source (from 2013) which does not include such information. The fact that other versions of The Report: Algeria omit such information suggests that this information is clearly WP:UNDUE and not a mainstream view. Page 128 in your own source states "Origin and identity does not necessarily match" and "In the latter two countries, few citizens have maintained their Amazigh identity", meaning that only a few identify as being part of that ethnic group, even though the source claims that a higher percentage are supposedly of Berber origins.

4) I propose that we stick to what the vast majority of reliable sources say and that you to stop edit warring and POV-pushing. "Arab" does not mean "from the Arabian Peninsula". Skitash (talk) 16:52, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

1) Featured articles are exemples. So there is nothing to prevent you from introducing data on genetics in the body of the text (you oppose it in the infobox during mediation, so you are taking an even more extreme position here).

2) You have already produced this block in the mediation with a cherry-picking of sources that go in your direction. You have been contradicted by other sources and by the example of the featured articles cited above.We are not going to repeat the discussion: genetic elements can be cited in the text and the section.

This is the case in Algeria, where people identify based on what language they speak and what culture they practice This is a view that is not shared by all sources. Then you divert the second source that I cited, to retain only what you want (subjectivity) without taking the other part (realistic elements).

3)Please do not make ridiculous accusations. I am only repeating the sources in the DRN that took place. If there was an error it was not intentional. Since you have nothing to say, you accuse the source of making a ... UNDUE.

You cut the passage of Matthias Brenzinger: Origin and identity does not necessarily match. In the latter two countries (note: Tunisia and Libya), few citizens have maintained their Amazigh identity. In contrast, increasing numbers refer to themselves as Amazigh in Algeria and in Morocco. With 11 to 14 million speakers of Amazigh languages ​​in total, only about half of those who currently claim their Amazigh identity still speak an Amazigh language. Obviously, to call a person an Amazigh does no longer require any Amazigh languages ​​competence. This is a most threatening fact for the vitality of Amazigh languages ​​and serious indicator for its endangerment. which contradicts your claim to say where people identify themselves based on the language they speak.Why do you prevent us from enriching the article with these different notions (linguistics, identity, etc.)?

4)if the arabs of Algeria do not come (not all) from the arab peninsula, where do they come from? Why does mentioning arab migration (ancestral link) bother you less than mentioning berber ancestry? Why slip in this assertion without a source that the local demography comes from Arab migrations? The reader is therefore misled. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 17:43, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Off-topic discussion about editor conduct. Please use the talk page to try to improve the article; if you have an issue with the editor, take that somewhere else. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 17:04, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

And I propose you stop pushing your ancestry obsession on this article. You've been engaging in edit conflict about this matter since last month, despite a recent consensus that concluded on adding nothing to the infobox regarding ancestry. Right now you're venturing in WP:SPA territory, please stop it. This article is more suited for ethnic groups in Algeria and their diverse ancestry. Nourerrahmane (talk) 00:34, 29 September 2024 (UTC) @Nourerrahmane excuse me but I have no obsession I contribute a lot on many subjects. Besides the last time I saw your name is when you were blocked indefinitely on the French Wikipedia for "Disruptive Contributions" ... it is therefore curious that you turn yourself here into a giver of lessons, with personal accusations. Regards. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 17:49, 29 September 2024 (UTC) Being blocked in French Wikipedia by someone who owns articles there is irrelevent here (someone who badmouthed you recently in a TP in defense of a banned sock puppet...He also usually ends up facing off a whole consensus by himself and still blocks all improvement to Maghreb history articles, which is a shame. I didn't have this kind of treatement here). So please spare me your provocative comment, which actually is a personnal attack. I have every right to qualify you as an SPA when you're engaged in edit conflict and unfinished back and forth on the same subject in the same article for over a month. If this is not obsession then what is it ? Pov push ? anyways...I have no problem having this kind of of discussion in this article. Algeria is not about what the diffrence is between ancestry and ethnicity. This is off Topic. Regards. Nourerrahmane (talk) 18:23, 29 September 2024 (UTC) It is the administrators who block on French Wikipedia and not a simple contributor. I was not involved in this story, there is no point in taking it out on me. Please read the previous terms of mediation (DRN) about the ethnic section before making irrelevant accusations. Regards. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 22:57, 29 September 2024 (UTC) You seem to misunderstand me…I was not complaining to you, I was stating where such behaviour of yours came from. Which is more of a narrow interpretation of sources or cherry picking, pushing a WP:OR usually without consensus (like when you removed de-facto independent and military republic in the regency article despite multiple sources supporting it) and mixing bludgeoning, WP:PA and casting aspersions when your non constructive additions are challenged let alone edit warring. Your recent edits here make a good demonstration of that. Anyone told you that Wikipedia is about summarizing what WP:RS say ? That you should assume good faith towards other editors when your additions are challenged ? Nourerrahmane (talk) 16:51, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Sources

@Kovcszaln6 I will propose to summarize some sources. which are largely ignored in the current draft. The article in the current version cherry-picks to say that there are 85% Arabs implying in the current formulation that this is due to the influx of migrations from the Arabian Peninsula and not by the Arabization of the natives. By placing the sentence on migrations before perentage the reader is misled. To say that Arabs or Arab-Berbers are indigenous is a fundamental fact of the ethnic composition of Algeria as indicated by the following sources.

• 1) Moha Ennaji, Multiculturalism and Democracy in North Africa : Aftermath of the Arab Spring, [Multiculturalism and Democracy in North Africa - Google Books], Taylor & Francis: The terms "Arabs" and "Berbers” are misleading and not to be understood in an ethnic sense. The first inhabitants of North Africa were Berbers, and when Islam reached the region, it Islamized the population completely, but did not lead to its full Arabization. Today, it is preferable to refer to the populations in the region as Berberophone and Arabophone. In Morocco and Algeria, there is a linguistic issue, not a racial one, particularly the problematic of the integration of the Amazigh language in all walks of public life. Historically, many Berbers areas became completly arabized, and conversely many Arab zone were Berberized. Thus, the so called "Arabs" in Morocco and Algeria consist mainly of Arabized Berbers. In both countries, almorst everybody's origin is Berber, but only a minority speak Berber, about 40 percent and 15 percent of the total population of Morocco and Algeria, respectively (Chaker 1998:16; Benrabah, this volume).
• 2) Matthias Brenzinger, Language diversity Endagered, p.128, More than 70% of North Africains of Amazigh originis speak no Amazigh languages, but Arabic languages only. In Morocco and Algerian, about 80% of the citizen are considered to be of Amazigh origin, as are 60% in Tunisia and Libya. Origin and identity does not necessarily match. In the latter two countries (note: Tunisia and Libya), few citizens have maintained their Amazigh identity. In contrast, increasing numbers refer to themselves as Amazigh in Algeria and in Morocco. With 11 to 14 million speakers of Amazigh languages ​​in total, only about half of those who currently claim their Amazigh identity still speak an Amazigh language. Obviously, to call a person an Amazigh does no longer require any Amazigh languages ​​competence. This is a most threatening fact for the vitality of Amazigh languages ​​and serious indicator for its endangerment.
• 3) Language Policy and Planning in Algeria: Case Study of Berber Language Planning, [(PDF) Language Policy and Planning in Algeria: Case Study of Berber Language Planning (researchgate.net)], ISSN 1799-2591 Theory and Practice in Language Studies, Vol. 13, No. 1, pp. 59-68, January 2023. It is noted worthy that up to present, no official and accurate census data regarding the Berbers’ demographics are available, yet scholars claim that approximately 80 to 90 per cent of the current population of North Africa remains ethnically Berbers, albeit a large portion of this proportion has been Arabized and has therefore lost their original Berber identity markers (Ilahiane, 2006, p. xxxvi). Following the same line of thought, Chaker (2004) asserts that “the huge majority of current Arabic speakers in the Maghreb are in fact Berbers who were “Arabized” at various times in history.
• 4) Dmoh Bacha, Algerie Culture Identite, Maghreb : Algerie Maroc Tunisie, [31], p.192-193 :L'idéologie du Panarabisme, progressiste ou conservateur (Islamiste), a épuisé son crédit. Le concept du « Néo-arabisme » fut lancé d'abord par Napoléon III qui envisagea la création d'un « Royaume Arabe » s'étendant d'Alger jusqu'à Bagdad. Ce concept, sur un territoire plus vaste, et sous différente idéologie, fut repris par le mouvement politique « Panarabe », dans les années 1940. Ce mouvement donna le parti Baath et la mouvance Nassérienne. Le Néo-arabisme se consolida avec la formation de la Ligue Arabe, organisation territoriale créée en 1945. Cette ligue comprend 22 pays arabophones. [...] Les tests ADN donnent un rapport génétique Arabe/Berbère au Maghreb, estimé à : « — 65% d’ascendance ethnique berbère — 15% d’ascendance ethnique arabe du côté paternel — 20% d’ascendance diverses, Afrique sub-saharienne, Europe, Asie centrale. (Bekada, 2013) » Le flou identitaire en Algérie persiste sous la mouvance arabo-musulmane, qui veut substituer, religion au patriotisme et par riccocher au nationalisme
• 5)Oxford Business Group, The Repport, p.10, Arround 99% of population is Arab-Berber ethnicity, which means that nearly all of the citizenry is descended from Berber or Amazigh populations – the indigenous pre-Islamic peoples of North Africa.
• 6) Amirouche Chelli, Rapport aux langues natives et enseignement du français en Algérie, [32]. Quant à la proportion des locuteurs berbérophones ou de la population d’origine berbère, 1l est très difficile de donner une estimation exacte. Il n’y a jamais eu de recensement officiel basé sur les critères de l’origine ou de la pratique linguistique et même s’il y en avait eu, 1l aurait été imprécis en raison de plusieurs facteurs dont la peur d'affirmer son appartenance identitaire, et sans doute aussi manipulé voire falsifié par l'institution administrative initiatrice, elle-même, pour répondre à l’enjeu majeur que constitue ce taux dans l’idéologie nationale et la politique d’arabisation. Chaker (1990) et avant lui Camps (1981) affirment que la majorité des arabophones actuels ne sont que des Berbères arabisés à des dates plus ou moins anciennes. Le mythe du Maghreb arabe exclusif n’existe que dans l’imaginaire des idéologues arabo-musulmans, de leurs disciples et de leurs supplétifs. Pour Chadli Bendjedid, l’ancien président algérien, interviewé récemment par deux chercheurs japonais chez lui à Oran, les Berbères ont été systématiquement arabisés par l’islam qui s’est imposé non pas par la force des épées mais conséquemment à une adhésion harmonieuse et automatique, et que la question de la berbérité qu’il exclut complètement comme faisant partie de la personnalité algérienne, n’est qu’une 1dée néocolonialiste visant à déstabiliser le pays et créer des scissions dans la nation arabo-musulmane maghrébine.
• 7) Robert Laffitte, C'était l'Algérie, 1993 : [33] : Il a été remarqué, depuis longtemps, et affirmé bien des fois, que l’Algérie est peuplée de Berbères, et de Berbères arabisés du point de vue de la langue, mais les gens ayant du sang arabe dans les veines y sont certainement peu nombreux, et surtout ce sang doit être extrêmement dilué. Ils sont arabes au même titre que les antillais qui sont, suivant le cas, de langue française, anglaise ou espagnole, mais dont la couleur de peau atteste sinon l’origine, tout au moins l’origine de leurs aïeux, et ils sont français, anglais ou de nationalité hispanique
• 8) Gilbert Meynier, L’Algérie des origines. De la Préhistoire à l’avènement de l’islam, p. 11, 2007, la conquête islamo-arabe n’a pas déplacé vers le Maghreb des foules démesurées, pas plus que, par exemple en Europe, les invasions germaniques en France et en Espagne. Aujourd’hui, on peut raisonnablement affirmer que, peu ou prou, les Algériens sont très majoritairement des Berbères arabisés
• 9) Paul Balta, Présentation de son ouvrage, "Les particularités de l’islam au Maghreb", [La Bibliothèque en ligne - Les particularités de l’islam au Maghreb - Paul Balta Clio - Voyage Culturel] : À juste titre : bien que largement arabisée, la population du Maghreb, – le nom arabe de l’Occident – appartient dans sa très grande majorité à l’ethnie berbère, les Imazighen – au singulier Amazigh – « les hommes libres ». Une formule lapidaire, qu’on prête à Ibn Khaldoun (1332-1406) mais qui est de l’historien marocain Lahsen el-Youssi, auteur à la fin du XVIIe siècle d’Al Mouhadarât, définit ainsi l’homme berbère et son espace, de la Libye à la Mauritanie : « halq el rouous, akl el couscous, lebs el burnous : crânes rasés, mangeurs de couscous, porteurs de burnous ».

If we take the sources, some of which cited by Skitash:

• Britanica: “Arab invasions in the 8th and 11th centuries brought only limited numbers of new people to the region but resulted in the extensive Arabization and Islamization of the indigenous Amazigh population. »
• CIA Factbook: “although almost all Algerians are Amazigh in origin and not Arab”

If we take the sources, some of which cited by Skitash: How arrives at a formulation of the type Centuries of Arab migrations to the Maghreb since the seventh century shifted the demographic scope in Algeria. Estimates vary based on different sources.. Which clearly suggests that the population originates from these migrations, which as it stands is neither more nor less misleading. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 22:33, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

1) Not a single source here pertains to ethnic identity. They're all about ancestral origins, which, as we've debated extensively, are distinct from one another. The vast majority of sources make it clear that those who identify as Arab form a majority. It's ironic that you accuse me of cherrypicking. 2) As for "Centuries of Arab migrations to the Maghreb since the seventh century shifted the demographic scope in Algeria", this is factually correct because the migrations clearly had an impact on the country's demography, i.e. language, culture, and genetics.[34] If that weren't the case, the majority wouldn't speak Arabic or identify as Arab today. Skitash (talk) 22:45, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

What is difficult to explain is why you maintain the ambiguity on the fact that ethnicity is linked to this migration? It is a form of ancestry, except that this time it is a WP:OR, because no one says that the ethnicity of Algerians/Maghrebis is essentially due to the arrival of migrants from the Arabian peninsula. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 22:52, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Do you dispute the fact that the Arab migrations were directly correlated with the rapid increase in people speaking Arabic and identifying as Arab? Skitash (talk) 22:57, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm finding it very hard to follow your logic. M.Bitton (talk) 23:13, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

@Skitash I am not here to give my opinion. We are trying to define content that synthesizes what is said in the sources. If you have sources that explain the impact of these invasions on Algeria, they can be part of the synthesis, but so can sources that explain that the population remained of indigenous origin for the most part. Knowing whether the population is from North Africa or the Arabian Peninsula is fundamental to the subject. The current wording plays on the ambiguity by positioning Arab ethnicity just after migrations and a discussion on demography. This suggests to the reader that the population comes mainly from these migrations. This is a guiding idea that we find suggested in different articles where you intervene, such as here: Arab_migrations_to_the_Maghreb#Demographics. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 23:15, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Your argument makes no sense. The Arab migrations resulted in widespread Arabization (which is covered in the respective Arab migrations to the Maghreb article) which meant that most Berbers, Punics, and all other pre-Arab ethnic groups became Arabs and started speaking Arabic. Their ancestral origins have no bearing on what their contemporary ethnicity is. Skitash (talk) 23:20, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

which meant that most Berbers, Punics, and all other pre-Arab ethnic groups became Arabs and started speaking Arabic. precisely this is not written in the article and you do not help to remove this ambiguity of Arabization of the first populations and not of their replacement (incidentally the Punics is a WP:UNDUE, based on a diversion of source that I pointed out to you in the article on Arab migrations), otherwise how is the Arab ethnic group formed in Algeria?

Their ancestral origins have no bearing on what their contemporary ethnicity is. You are contradicted on this point by source: 1), 3), 4), 5), 9) and different notions about ethnicity like this one [35]. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 23:36, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

DRN

For information. Due to the blockages and editorial dissent, I filed a request with DRN. Hoping that the procedure is respected. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 14:07, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Demographics -> Religion

Wikipedia is not a forum
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Why does the subheading refer to an article about ‘History of Jews in Algeria’, but the subsection itself doesn’t make any reference whatsoever, even codedly or ambiguously, to the history of Jewish demographics in Algeria? This article has existed for many years. Many people have edited it, but apparently not one has seen fit to explain the demographic change in the Jewish population of Algeria. That’s very odd. KronosAlight (talk) 23:23, 21 November 2024 (UTC) Hello You are free to participate in the improvement of the article on the points you deem necessary based on academic sources. Regards. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 22:13, 22 November 2024 (UTC) I made that comment to highlight the obvious problem of antisemitism among Wikipedia editors. The question was rhetorical. KronosAlight (talk) 20:34, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

The opening of the article is different from other Middle Eastern countries.

Hello. First of all, I am sorry I didn't mean to do disruptive edits or personal attack, you misunderstood me, I didn't insult anyone, my edits were sourced and i changed many parts of my edits so they were different edits not the same edit.

Skitash and MrOllie didn't explain why do they think my edit is not improvement? my edits were with sources I changed my edits several times and they still didn't explain why do they think these other new changes are not improvement? Skitash removed my talk section without replying to my point all he wrote in fact it makes no sense? what I mentioned is sourced historical facts, why does he think they don't make sense?

I wanted to add more information with sources about history of Algeria and dynasties and states centered in Algeria because the opening article just mentions ottomans and romans and byzantines....etc even though these empires dominated parts of West Asia and North Africa not just Algeria

The Levant (Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine), East Europe, Egypt and Iraq were occupied for centuries by the Greeks, Byzantines, Romans, Persians, Ottomans....etc In addition to these empires, other empires, The Levant (Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine) were occupied by the French crusaders for 200 years. Iraq was occupied by the Central Asians (Jalayirid Sultanate, Ilkhanate, Timurids) for 196 years.

however most opening pages of these countries don't mention these empires that occupied these countries or just mention a few of them.

for example, the opening page of Lebanon just mention few of empires who occupied Lebanon but not all of them, it doesn't mention in the opening page most empires that occupied Lebanon.

Same thing with Egypt, no mention of Greeks, Persians and Romans...etc

same thing with the opening page of syria it doesn't mention the empires of french crusaders, romans, byzantines, greeks..... dominating Syria etc.

Skitsh said my first edit is not improvement I thought maybe he thinks information about armies and one certain dynasty based in neighboring region originating from algeria is tangential so I removed information about armies because some people may see it as tangential, I didn't mean to attack him, I just mean that there are some people who makes politically motivated edits on Wikipedia history articles and as we know Wikipedia right now is moderated less than in the past because many Wikipedians left Wikipedia and it made it harder for few moderators to moderate thousands of articles.

I made this the latest edit and it was reverted again without a reason by Skitash

"Algeria has been inhabited since prehistory and was historically known as Numidia, like many other Mediterranean countries it has been at the crossroads of numerous cultures and civilizations, including the Phoenicians, Numidians, Romans, Vandals, and Byzantine Greeks. The territory of modern-day Algeria was the foundation of several states, such as Numidia, the Hammadids, the Zirids, the Regency of Algiers and other states"

I removed too the mentioned of a historical figure (Saint Augustine) because most opening of countries articles don't mention historical figures

I suggest removing "Turks" because regency of algiers was largely independent and because opening pages of Syria don't mention ottoman occupation

and I suggest removing vandals because vandal kingdom was in small part of algeria

I suggest this edit

""Algeria has been inhabited since prehistory and was historically known as Numidia, like many other Mediterranean countries it has been at the crossroads of numerous cultures and civilizations, including the Phoenicians, Romans, and Byzantine Greeks. The territory of modern-day Algeria was the foundation of several states, such as Numidia, the Hammadids, the Zirids, the Regency of Algiers and other states"

Thanks. POTDL (talk) 21:53, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Ethnic background

There are several inaccuracies in the article that should be addressed. It distinguishes between the indigenous Amazigh peoples of Algeria and the "Arabs," but most ethnographic and genetic studies suggest that the so-called "Arabs" of Algeria are, in fact, predominantly of Amazigh descent, having adopted the Arabic language over time. This distinction should be clarified, as the current framing can be misleading (see Genetic History of North Africa). It would be more accurate and appropriate to refer to Algerian "Arabs" as Arabic speakers rather than implying a separate ethnic identity. This use of arab makes as little sens as calling people from Ivory Coast french because they speak french...

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6532504/ https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/34/2/318/2680801?login=false Stoutstouta (talk) 20:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)