Talk:Invincible (Michael Jackson album)

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Invincible (Michael Jackson album) has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
April 20, 2010	Good article nominee	Listed
July 9, 2010	Good topic candidate	Promoted
March 23, 2021	Good topic removal candidate	Demoted

Current status: Good article

Michael Jackson Top‑importance

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Albums

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Requested move 20 February 2025

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. The proposed move would have moved a fully disambiguated title to a WP:PDAB, and users were mixed on whether the Michael Jackson album was the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC by a sufficient margin to justify it. The provided data indicated that the Michael Jackson album had the most pageviews by a comfortable lead, with a 5:1 ratio over the sum of the other albums' pageviews. This would make for a clear case for a "traditional" primary topic scenario, but PDABs must meet a higher threshold to be permissible, and well-reasoned arguments were leveled both for and against the claim that the pageviews and significance of Michael Jackson's album met that threshold. The discussion has been open for a month and neither argument seems to significantly surpass the other's strength, either in numbers or in policy backing, with the result that this RM was unable to reach a consensus in either direction. (closed by non-admin page mover) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 21:03, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Invincible (Michael Jackson album) → Invincible (album) – This is the primary topic by far, per WP:PDAB, as it generates overwhelmingly five times more results than the other four subjects of the same name (Invincible (Five album), Invincible (Lemar album), Invincible (Two Steps from Hell album), Invincible (Skillet album)) combined. TheWikiholic (talk) 04:58, 20 February 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. TarnishedPath^talk 09:55, 27 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose the introduction of unnecessary ambiguity. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 16:11, 24 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support, when most people think of the Invincible album naturally they think of Michael Jackson's. This isn't like it will get mixed up with the Television show either so there's no conflict Never17 (talk) 01:16, 25 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

There clearly is a conflict. This move request passing would be choosing to willfully ignore it. Which we sometimes do in similar cases, but we should be clear about what it is that we are doing. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 02:03, 25 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

What would you propose? Never17 (talk) 04:10, 25 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Doing nothing. I don't see any problem with the current situation. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 04:54, 25 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Invincible (Michael Jackson album) has garnered 72,456 views in the last 90 days, whereas Invincible (Skillet album) has got 4,494 views, Invincible (Two Steps from Hell album) 4,405 views, Invincible (Five album) 4,377 views, and Invincible (Lemar album) 283 views in comparison. This proves the article is the primary topic among albums and does not need further disambiguation by adding "Michael Jackson album". TheWikiholic (talk) 01:16, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support - clear primary topic and inline with WP:INCDAB MraClean (talk) 19:09, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Albums and WikiProject Michael Jackson have been notified of this discussion. TarnishedPath^talk 09:55, 27 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Incomplete disambiguation is never a good idea. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:20, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support. It vastly surpasses the other results and more cultural significance Mr Boar1 (talk) 03:25, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I have no issue in general with partial disambiguation (and I honestly think the other opposers shoot themselves in the foot when they press a rejected categorical argument rather than considering things case by case), but in this instance I don't think the standard is met: five-to-one would certainly make for a primary topic under normal circumstances, but I'm not convinced it meets the higher threshold that WP:INCDAB establishes. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 09:44, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Atleast 6 albums Earthling (album), Buffalo Springfield (album),Born This Way (album),Resolve (album),Set You Free (album), Tattoos (album) have partial DABs with ratios of 4:1, 4:1, 4:1, and 3:1, 3:1, 3:1, respectively mostly against two and three of similar titles combined. This article's page ratio is 5:1, combined with five other album titles. And I think it meets the highest threshold required by WP:INCDAB." TheWikiholic (talk) 10:43, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think any of those have been to RM (except for one back before it was fully ambiguous). If the ratios are that low, I'd certainly support moving them, and I suspect others would too. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 10:48, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: Echoing Extraordinary Writ, those six examples were probably found by scanning the content of WP:PDAB#PDABLIST for cases with the lowest ratios. It is important to realize that WP:PDAB is merely a collection of information about what exists, not an endorsement of the listed items. Wikipedia has millions of articles, so it is possible to find instances of all sorts of phenomena. Six articles is a small number. For example, there 813 articles that use a spaced hyphen in their titles, and practically all of those are improperly titled per MOS:DASH.

Moreover, all of those six are cases where only one other album article is a competing topic (Earthling, Resolve, Set You Free, Tatoos) or all or all but one of the other topics are follow-on releases from the same artist (Buffalo Springfield and Born This Way). This situation is different, with five stand-alone album articles competing that are all from different artists.

The described ratio of 5:1 seems too low for this situation. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:12, 14 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

—⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:54, 14 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per Pppery and Necrothesp. Frost 07:03, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per above. WP:NOPRIMARY. JeffSpaceman (talk) 17:25, 14 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Per nom. All four of the other uses are relatively obscure. Not to mention the enormous musical historical significance all of MJs work represents. Textbook primary topic. В²C ☎ 19:15, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
You're clearly a bigger fan of Michael Jackson than I am. "Enormous historical musical significance" for "all of MJs work"? Really? —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 19:35, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I’m not a fan at all. But I recognize the dude was ground-breaking. He’s a Grammy Legend Award winner for crying out loud. He’s one of only 14 who’ve achieved that. Those other albums are already essentially forgotten. This was MJ’s last album before his death. Hugely historically significant , especially compared to the others. —-В²C ☎ 21:36, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support. WP:PDAB states The main question about PDABs is whether a PDAB itself can have a primary topic. In the example of Thriller (album), there is one album that is very well known and is considered much more highly notable than the others. The exact same rule applies here. If Thriller(album) is primary topic so is Invicible(album) as that album too is much more highly notable than the others castorbailey (talk) 14:23, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

For Thriller, the pageview ratio is more than 100:1 when considering all non-MJ topics combined. At only 5:1, this is not in the same class. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 14:44, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

WP:PDAB does not require a 100:1 ratio nor does it say Thriller(album) is primary topic because it has a 100:1 ratio rather it states Thriller is '' very well known and is considered much more highly notable than the others'' which is unquestionably true to Invincible too. castorbailey (talk) 22:07, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support as no other album called "Invincible" is close beating MJ's work for notability. I don't wish to say "inherent notability", but duh. It's Michael Jackson. His stuff will matter more than the other stuff in history. Barnt Toust 01:46, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.